ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
Secretary of State Marco Rubio had some testy exchanges with Democrats in the committee where he once served. At a budget hearing, Rubio defended big cuts and the Trump administration's decision to dismantle the U.S. Agency for International Development. Democrats on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee say this is not the Marco Rubio they remember, as NPR's Michele Kelemen reports.
MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Senator Chris Van Hollen says he thought Rubio would stand up for democracy and human rights around the world.
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CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: You haven't. You've done the opposite. And you used to speak with conviction about the importance of foreign aid as a tool to advance American values and interests. Then you stood by while Elon Musk took a chainsaw to USAID and other assistance programs.
KELEMEN: The Maryland Democrat says people in Sudan are dying because of this. Van Hollen also criticized Rubio for fast-tracking white South Africans for refugee status, making, in his words, a mockery of America's refugee program, which was halted for everyone else.
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VAN HOLLEN: And I have to tell you directly and personally that I regret voting for you for secretary of state.
KELEMEN: Van Hollen did not ask the secretary any questions, but the Republican chairman of the committee, Jim Risch, gave Rubio the floor, and the secretary used it to mock Van Hollen's recent trip to El Salvador to meet a man who the Trump administration mistakenly deported.
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MARCO RUBIO: And that guy is a gangbanger, and that - and the evidence is going to be clear. In the days to come you're going to see who you want to...
VAN HOLLEN: Mr. Chairman, he...
JAMES RISCH: Senator, please...
VAN HOLLEN: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.
RISCH: ...Secretary Rubio has the floor.
VAN HOLLEN: Mr. Chairman, he can't make unsubstantiated...
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RISCH: Senator...
VAN HOLLEN: ...Comments like that.
RISCH: ...Secretary Rubio has the floor. You've had your time.
VAN HOLLEN: Secretary Rubio should take that testimony of the federal court...
RISCH: Senator...
VAN HOLLEN: ...In the United States because he hasn't done it under oath.
KELEMEN: It was an unusually testy exchange in a committee where Rubio was once a member. The ranking Democrat, Jeanne Shaheen, was also tough with the secretary, questioning him about the Trump administration's outreach to Russian President Vladimir Putin.
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JEANNE SHAHEEN: What Vladimir Putin is doing now is playing for time, and he's playing this president like a fiddle.
KELEMEN: Shaheen says the administration is giving away its leverage as Russia continues its aggression in Ukraine. Rubio pushed back.
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RUBIO: Well, I disagree with this playing with the fiddle analogy because the truth of the matter is when Vladimir Putin woke up this morning, he had the same set of sanctions on him that he's always had, since the beginning of this conflict. And Ukraine was still getting armaments and shipments from us and from our allies, and the European Union is about to impose additional sanctions. And what the president's trying to do is end a war.
KELEMEN: A war he says neither side can win.
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RUBIO: Russia wants what they do not currently have and are not entitled to, and Ukraine wants what they cannot regain militarily. And that's been the crux of the challenge.
KELEMEN: Both Republicans and Democrats have been pushing for more sanctions on Russia. Rubio said President Trump believes that if the U.S. starts threatening sanctions again, the Russians will stop talking. So he seems to be encouraging lawmakers to hold off on new sanctions legislation for now. He did get bipartisan support for easing sanctions on Syria's new government, though Rubio issued a dire warning about where that country could be heading.
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RUBIO: In fact, it is our assessment that, frankly, the transitional authority, given the challenges they're facing, are maybe weeks, not many months, away from potential collapse and a full-scale civil war of epic proportions - basically, the country splitting up.
KELEMEN: He says the U.S. is hoping to prevent that by engaging Syria's transitional leaders, even though they have, in his words, a tough history. They're former Jihadi fighters who overthrew Bashar al-Assad's regime last year. Rubio says he'll work with Congress to see how the U.S. can steer Syria in the right direction.
Michele Kelemen, NPR News, the State Department. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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